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#176 by wakaranai
2015-12-06 at 13:15
^it's because you got your first guideline wrong, を should be romanized as "o" when used as a particle (link). in d5#1 there's a link to this anidb wiki article.
#177 by venomg3
2015-12-06 at 17:09
about d5#1 is how を romanized a valid alias?
on Yume wo Mou Ichido を as "o" is used as a alias, if they were switched around would "wo" be a valid alias?Last modified on 2015-12-06 at 17:23
#178 by venomg3
2015-12-07 at 00:45
//on screenshots //
was there a decision on whether or not the rule could be lightened or should it be enforced as is, and screenshots not max native on highres VN's be removed

as it popped up again in t7231 (v18699) *edit*fixed by dev since this postLast modified on 2015-12-07 at 01:02
#179 by beliar
2015-12-07 at 00:52
To my knowledge Yorhel didn't say anything and no decision was reached.
Just my two cents, but my opinion is that screens up to 1920x1080 should be enforced with higher resolutions allowed in downscale. Also exceptions may be allowed due to some weird things going on with Ren'Py engine as discussed in this thread.
#180 by takata
2015-12-07 at 06:06
@#178 venomg3:
Judging from the discussion in t3295, yorhel is probaby NOT going to carve out an exception for unusually large (like 1080p) VNs.

However, he seems to allow exceptions for stuff with _no_native_resolution_, like the fully-3D battle levels in Galaxy Angel Eternal Lovers. The story content is in 640x480, but the battles can be set as high as 1600x1200 (I think). Since the battle levels are just rendered polygons in a 3D space, 1600x1200 isn't any more "native" than 640x480.

He also carved out an exception for PS2 games in t4432 since it's hard to know what the native resolution is for those. Supposedly it's 640x448, but that doesn't have an aspect ratio of 4:3, so the image would have to be stretched to 4:3 when displayed on a TV.Last modified on 2015-12-07 at 06:09
#181 by venomg3
2015-12-07 at 06:41
yeah judging from t3295, its probably gonna be a no,
but best to inquire, before removing a chunk of screenshots from games
#182 by tyciol
2015-12-08 at 02:38
re takata u9433 at t950.159
only a cynical interpretation of this rule could lead you to believe it was okay for a character entry to be so woefully incomplete that it lacks the character's real name when it is probably known.

I added it in every instance I did know it. My ability to research data like that will improve with time. If it's so easy to find, why couldn't the deleter have added it?

It does not permit you to omit the character name just because _you_ don't know it and can't be bothered to find out. It only permits you to omit the name if it is not readily known to someone reading the VN.

I realize how "if X is not known" can be taken either way, but my interpretation is the most inclusive and in line with adding as much data as possible.

if you were adding the protagonist of the Halo video game series, you would at least have to put "Master Chief". You couldn't put "Soldier" just because you couldn't be bothered to do a little research, or play the game a little.

It's easier to access data like this on Halo, and I don't really see the problem with putting 'soldier' since someone could easily replace that name field with Master Chief if they did know it.

Try to realise that even vndb has minimum standards.

Where are these standards spelled out? That's the problem, I'm looking to the rules for these guidelines and not finding them, seems like people are inventing them. If they're actually written down more specifically (like you have pointed out the ambiguosity of "not known" text) this wouldn't come up.

if you add a character entry with a name like "Loli in stripes", it implies that her real name is unknown, which is probably not true, so it is misleading.

That is completely false. As I already pointed out, the tag No Name exists for putting on characters when making that claim.

I would not be averse to the creation of a "name status needed" meta tag though, if it would set things at ease and make drawing attention to chars in need of work easier.

But there is absolutely nothing misleading about describing the character as best you can until they can be better described.

I mean, if you added a character's first name but not their last (because you didn't know it) that would not mean you are implying the character has no last name or that it's never mentioned.

An incomplete entry, an entry missing information, does not imply the information doesn't exist, just that those working so far have not included it.

The only minimum standard that currently exists in the rules as I see them now is that the character must exist in the novel. The need for an entry is thus established and we need to build it from whatever scraps are available until more can be found. It seems more in the spirit of co-operation to let it be or build it bigger than to kill it.Last modified on 2015-12-08 at 02:39
#183 by nanana
2015-12-08 at 17:52
oh my god someone asked if wo really should changed to o because i reverted their edit

you should read the faq too, because i feel dumb for not reading that link preferred by d5#1 sooner
#184 by pabloc
2015-12-08 at 18:01
An incomplete entry, an entry missing information, does not imply the information doesn't exist, just that those working so far have not included it.
Incomplete entry is fine. Entry with no information is NOT fine, because it's useless. Entry with FALSE information is absolutely unacceptable. "Loli in stripes" in place of character's name is FALSE information. Inaccurate descriptions or wrong traits based solely on poor guesswork and screenshots are FALSE information. Do you understand it?
#185 by tyciol
2015-12-09 at 02:18
You are setting up a strawman to knock down. There was not 'no information'. Your 'loli in stripes' example had a picture, showing how the character appeared in the game, and I had also assigned a variety of traits associated with her appearance.

Descriptions in place of a name is not false information, we are allowed to use a description if we don't know the name according to the rules.

I understand that wrong traits are false information: that's what one calls a mistake. The existence of a character is not a mistake though, so deleting a character entry is not the appropriate solution, correcting whatever you think is false is.
#186 by takata
2015-12-09 at 05:30
if you were adding the protagonist of the Halo video game series, you would at least have to put "Master Chief". You couldn't put "Soldier" just because you couldn't be bothered to do a little research, or play the game a little.
It's easier to access data like this on Halo, and I don't really see the problem with putting 'soldier' since someone could easily replace that name field with Master Chief if they did know it.
This just might be the root of the problem. You're not supposed to add info that you _know_ will _probably_ have to be _replaced_ later by someone who knows the game better than you. This won't be in the guidelines because it's probably considered common sense for ALL wiki-type sites. Even if it was 2001, and Halo had just been released, I would expect you to put at least "Master Chief".

This doesn't mean that everything has to be perfect the first time. The trait tree is so oversized (and still growing >.<) that you will inevitably miss a lot of traits that relate to a character, even if you try to be complete.

Even names (like for Alicefeeze Fatalburn (also see t3336) and Almo Blueberry) aren't immune to later improvement, but even the first names allocated to those character entries don't blatantly need to be fixed.

Descriptions in place of a name is not false information, we are allowed to use a description if we don't know the name according to the rules.
Err... no. I don't see any guideline explicitly permitting you to substitute a description of the character for their name just because you don't know their name. The moderators also asked you not to do this.

Bottom line, don't add something with the intention that someone else will fix it or make it presentable later. The vndb community is thin enough that that won't neccesarily happen. Even if the vndb community was larger, it would still be annoying. Honest mistakes are okay, but habitually inserting wrong information (like putting a _description_ in a field that expects a _name_) is not.Last modified on 2015-12-09 at 05:38
#187 by dk382
2015-12-09 at 06:26
tyciol, we are never, ever going to change our philosophy on this matter no matter how much you complain. Either conform to these standards or just leave.
#188 by yorhel
2015-12-09 at 16:34
Just my two cents, but my opinion is that screens up to 1920x1080 should be enforced with higher resolutions allowed in downscale.
I don't feel strongly against this suggestion, actually. I still very much prefer that screenshots are uploaded in their native resolution even if that's a 4K resolution or something, but I understand that it's not that uncommon to find VNs in higher resolutions than most computers/screens support. Screenshots of 1920x1080 are already quite useful, so from a pragmatic point of view I can allow an exception for downscaling in this case.

...Remind me that I need to update the guidelines with all these exceptions.
#189 by overmage
2015-12-10 at 11:53
If it's so easy to find, why couldn't the deleter have added it?

So it doesn't encourage people like you to add characters without even knowing their name

Like are you seriously defending not even knowing the name of a character you want to add
#190 by tyciol
2015-12-11 at 01:52
(takata)
>You're not supposed to add info that you _know_ will _probably_ have to be _replaced_ later by someone who knows the game better than you

Why do you assume I know the probability? I don't know a name exists until I encounter the name, at which point I add it.

If I know a character has a sibling but not the gender of the sibling, what is the harm in adding "sibling" and someone replacing it with 'brother' or 'sister' later on?

>This won't be in the guidelines because it's probably considered common sense for ALL wiki-type sites.

No it isn't, you're just making stuff up now. Wikis are meant to be edited as new info is discovered, or as info changes. A debuting series might say "it has 13 episodes" and then a year later need to be changed to 26. A character might be described as a virgin and then later have this changed if they lose it.

>Even if it was 2001, and Halo had just been released, I would expect you to put at least "Master Chief".

What if it was 2000 or whenever the game was in dev before the protagonist's name was known? What if there had only been an audio clip released where someone gets cut off "I won't let you do this Master.." or starts late "..Chief is coming!" ? If that's all that a person knew it would be fine to add that until we knew more. If you know more, you can change it. Putting one name is not the end-all of names, it is merely, as d12#3 says "the name that is most commonly used to refer to this character". If you know a name that is more common that what someone uses, you can just replace it. Much like main/secondary/appears there can be a difference of knowledge on what holds more prominence, and I'd defer to someone adding something they claimed was more frequently used to refer to the char, assuming good faith.

>even the first names allocated to those character entries don't blatantly need to be fixed.

Sure they do, they're missing data. =/

One thing I think would be a good idea though, is if something is a descriptor rather than a proper name, we perhaps surround it by something to indicate that.

For example if it is something another character says, we could put in quotation marks. If it is something they are merely described as in narration then perhaps put it in parenthesis.

This would show room for improvement if it exists (and if it is asserted not to exist, then the 'no name' trait could be used) and help characters begin to be detailed based on limited knowledge until more is gained.

>I don't see any guideline explicitly permitting you to substitute a description of the character for their name just because you don't know their name.

d12#3

use the name that is most commonly used to refer to this character

If I read in a gallery with a game review "the protagonist's sister" then I added something to that effect. I found that preferable to just "sister" because there might be other sisters in the game and it seemed ideal to pick something more specific and less ambiguous.

Otherwise, if I found nothing, then a basic description I came up with like "girl with red hair" or whatever (unless of course there were other red-haired girls, then maybe 'red hair with braid') was by default the 'most common' until I found something more common to replace it, as many did.

>The moderators also asked you not to do this.

Moderators could also ask me for credit card codes or nude selfies, shouldn't we only obey mod requests if they are in line with enforcing the rules? All I'm asking is the rules be made clearer to support these requests.

I really think rules allowing quote/parenthesis names so we can detail and identify chars without known names is good.

Otherwise we can only add them as "Unknown" (with associated 'no name' trait) if we KNOW they don't have a name, and proving a negative is incredibly difficult. You would need to be all-knowing about every path in every release of every game in a series and all associated media and developer commentary to know for absolute certain a character is un-named.

There should be a middle ground where you do not assert they are named or un-named and let that live in limbo until the character is further identified. We let all other kinds of things (whether they die, whether they kill, whether they have virgin sex, whether they are parents) lie in limbo until identified so why not this?

All that should matter is that they are a character and they should have an entry as detailed as possible.

>don't add something with the intention that someone else will fix it or make it presentable later.

This is a guideline for final drafts, not wikis or other co-operative encyclopedias like this database.

I mean heck, just randomly looking I find Mir where you just add name/gender/pic and say you'll 'add details later' and then game back 4 days later and did so.

If this is okay because you intended to make it presentable later yourself, why can't I intend that too? The only diff is you can feasibly do it within a week whereas I might take a month or year to find the data, particularly when we're talking about obscure old games that are hard to find translations for (or which might not exist) in comparison to a 2006 VN which got a 2007 Eng version.

re: dk382

>we are never, ever going to change our philosophy on this matter no matter how much you complain

I'm asking only that philosophy conform to rules or vice versa, they should be in sync with each other. If you're going to punish someone for breaking a rule then please write the rule down.

re: overmage

>So it doesn't encourage people like you to add characters without even knowing their name

Why shouldn't we encourage that? We are told we can add characters no matter how obscure, and to try and add all the characters in the game. d12#1 talks about this.

If we need to know the name of a character to add them, why isn't this spelled out in the introduction?

Even characters without names can be added, so I don't see why someone can't be added just because we haven't determined what category they fall into yet. The mission of documenting all chars who exist in the VN is the prime declaration here.

If there is a different philosophy at play universally amongst mods then why not change this to "Any character in a visual novel, no matter how obscure their role is, may be added to the database, so long as they have a name" ?

No Name exists if that is the case. If it is not the case then it can be added, just like you can later add a picture if an entry doesn't immediately have one.

If you are worried about giving false impressions, how about this take on things: if a character entry is missing, people may be given the false impression that the character entries they DO see are 100% of the characters who exist in the game.

Less misleading is done by identifying the existence of other characters, however lean the details we have about them may be, because it gives a bigger more complete version of the game.

People are more likely to assume a game has a small cast from seeing a small cast list than they are to assume "red haired girl" is literally a character's name. Allowing the user of lowercased letters and parenthesis to separate descriptors from names would also lessen problems.
#191 by takata
2015-12-11 at 07:25
The only way you _might_ get editing privileges restored is if you can convince the administrator that you will _always_ give characters a proper name in their .1 revision. Not a lot to ask, and you seem able to do it most of the time.

Why do you assume I know the probability? I don't know a name exists until I encounter the name, at which point I add it.
Because characters almost always have names. That you haven't found it yet is not a good reason to believe they don't have one. -and you can't point at the absence of the No Name trait either. The trait tree so massive that you can't really expect users to know that a particular trait exists _and_ infer something from its _absence_ on a character.

Wikis are meant to be edited as new info is discovered, or as info changes. A debuting series might say "it has 13 episodes" and then a year later need to be changed to 26.
If you would edit _as_ you discovered new info, that probably wouldn't be a problem, but I contend that you were sometimes editing _before_ you'd discovered the required info, and substituting incorrect info just to satisfy the new character submission form.

What if it was 2000 or whenever the game was in dev before the protagonist's name was known? What if there had only been an audio clip released where someone gets cut off "I won't let you do this Master.." or starts late "..Chief is coming!" ? If that's all that a person knew it would be fine to add that until we knew more. If you know more, you can change it. Putting one name is not the end-all of names, it is merely, as d12#3 says "the name that is most commonly used to refer to this character". If you know a name that is more common that what someone uses, you can just replace it. Much like main/secondary/appears there can be a difference of knowledge on what holds more prominence, and I'd defer to someone adding something they claimed was more frequently used to refer to the char, assuming good faith.
_If_ there was a video clip that suggested the protagonist's name might be just "Chief", then you could put that, and it would be improved upon later with "Master Chief".

Did you quote the guideline out of context intentionally? d12#3 says _if_ the character's name isn't known then you can
"use the name that is most commonly used to refer to this character in the story."
A name like Loli in stripes is not from the story, it's just something that _you_ made up, so wouldn't explicitly be permitted by this guideline even if she didn't have a name.

even the first names allocated to those character entries don't blatantly need to be fixed.
Sure they do, they're missing data. =/
That means they can be improved later. They weren't completely _wrong_, or blatantly in need of repair.

The moderators also asked you not to do this.
Moderators could also ask me for credit card codes or nude selfies, shouldn't we only obey mod requests if they are in line with enforcing the rules? All I'm asking is the rules be made clearer to support these requests.
What was asked of you was not unreasonable. You want to add characters? Make sure you give them an acceptable name in their .1 revision. The database will be better if you just do that.

The rules were made clear to you in discussions, but that does not imply the guideline pages have to be updated to invalidate your interpretation of them. Maybe no-one can be bothered to make them more air-tight (or tyciol-tight), and maybe it's unneccesary since no(?) other users are misinterpreting what is expected of them with regard to this rule.

don't add something with the intention that someone else will fix it or make it presentable later.
-snip-

I mean heck, just randomly looking I find Mir where you just add name/gender/pic and say you'll 'add details later' and then game back 4 days later and did so.

If this is okay because you intended to make it presentable later yourself, why can't I intend that too? The only diff is you can feasibly do it within a week whereas I might take a month or year to find the data, particularly when we're talking about obscure old games that are hard to find translations for (or which might not exist) in comparison to a 2006 VN which got a 2007 Eng version.
I only did this because I wanted to give them consecutive character ID numbers (even though that makes no difference to database operation... o.o), which requires me to add them so quickly that I don't have time to complete them. It didn't work anyway...

Also, I didn't omit any names even in the first edit, I did the research before adding lots of character entries, and I completed all the character entries I started in under a week instead of leaving stubs for months.Last modified on 2015-12-11 at 07:36
#192 by overmage
2015-12-11 at 11:19
Why shouldn't we encourage that?

It's just lazy. For the vast majority of cases it takes literally seconds to copy-paste the name of a VN into google and look up the website. And for names, you can copy-paste the names into Google Translate and it will give you the romaji. No further work needed.

And you know if the name *really* can't be found then make a post or something asking for the name. Because you see, the end result is that someone else still has to do all the dirty work for you. But the problem is that the chance that someone will spot the mistake and correct it is not 100%. So with your method of doing it, what happens is you increase the amount of junk that has to be fixed.

why isn't this spelled out in the introduction?
Because you have to be really pedantic to need it spelled out

If it is not the case then it can be added, just like you can later add a picture if an entry doesn't immediately have one.
A proper character picture is way harder to find than a damn name (if it's not on Getchu and you don't have a copy of the game you're SOL).

particularly when we're talking about obscure old games that are hard to find translations for

Google translate exists, you know. There's no need for an english translation if all you want to input is a name. If you're talking about not being able to find the character, make a post and ask someone.Last modified on 2015-12-11 at 11:40
#193 by rbashal
2015-12-13 at 08:22
Some ideas
Search button on front page menu. Useful with paste/ctrl+v.
In recent posts, move "posted in" out of the tooltip. On a small res it often wraps anyway. Maybe shorten times like 54m and 13h.
The random novels frame seems useless, so you could take its screen space for this. (unless we ever get a news/articles column)
The two releases frames should do the "..." based on calculations from window res. Also, they don't have feeds. Looks inconsistent.
VN page: Click on votes number to see who voted for a given rating
"Releases" under main tab should be a link to releases tab. Same with characters and anything else that makes sense.
Board: show current page number, centered. Maybe group prev/next and page numbers in center. Maybe replace the words with numbers.
There should also be a search this thread button.
#194 by silence
2015-12-13 at 08:40
Board: show current page number, centered. Maybe group prev/next and page numbers in center. Maybe replace the words with numbers.
+1
It's really tiresome to be directed to the first page each time. "Unread page" button would also be good xD
#195 by [deleted]
2015-12-15 at 02:08
Hi there. I just wanted to ask: Is there a method of contacting a user via PM? Right now, the only option appears to be leaving a thread under their user which can be accessible by anybody.

Is there a reason why PM is otherwise un-allowed here? Thanks!
#196 by yorhel
2015-12-15 at 02:20
There's no PM feature because (in my past experiences with other sites), their primary use is to exchange piracy links, send insults to each other and for spammers to send, well, spam. Which means that PMs should be checked by mods, which is easier and more transparantly solved by just making all messages public. You're free to exchange emails and whatnot outside of VNDB, of course.
#197 by space-ranger
2015-12-16 at 01:03
The random novels frame seems useless
I disagree. Like the quote I like the sudden surprise of seeing something good, which I haven't seen before. This feature has actually made me aware of VNs I'm quite sure I wouldn't have discovered otherwise. It seems to work much better than the "random VN" button for picking out something interesting, yet not the same tags as always.
#198 by rbashal
2015-12-16 at 11:18
And what of the four at the top?
Well, tbh I never look at automatic recommendations, random or not, but what you say is interesting.
There are other issues:
It tends to be the narrowest of the frames and wastes space from the "..." to its right border, while all the others are wrapping.
It could be moved under (or over) the statistics frame. Or made into a hover popup for the random VN link.
Also, probably most people can't understand the names. Half of it should show English releases.

@194: Why not click the "last post" link?

One other thing: in a VN thread, swap the link targets of v### and name (under "Posted in"). Or change the structure. It always confuses me.
#199 by wakaranai
2015-12-16 at 14:21
Or change the structure.
so it will confuse those who got accustomed to it over the years. yeah, sure, your convenience is of the most importance here, sir.
#200 by gabezhul
2015-12-28 at 18:21
Hey there. I was searching for a particular Android VN I recalled and I wanted to know its proper title. Anyways, here's something I though up that could have made my search a million times less time-consuming:

So, we already have a "language" filter in the VN search function. Could it be somehow tied into the "platform" filter, so that it would only show up a certain VN if they have a release on the right platform AND on the requested language AT THE SAME TIME.

Right now if I just search for English + Android, about 80% of the hits doesn't actually meet my criteria (they usually only have Japanese android releases), which kinda defeats the purpose of using the search engine right now...

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