Tags suggestions/fixes

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#1451 by rampaa
2018-09-28 at 18:57
@beliar
Well, lots of people said they would find the tag useful and people do ask about this information on many titles. So I don't think it's fair to say it would have little use.

As for the definition of rape... Well, we do have a rape tag, don't we? And it redirects to Wikipedia for the definition of it. And Wikipedia says "The act may be carried out by physical force, coercion, abuse of authority, or against a person who is incapable of giving valid consent..." which is to say, since a mindbroken heroine is incapable of giving valid consent, it's still rape.

Whether or not it would be used with appropriate spoiler level is totally irrelevant to the tag itself. So please do refrain from talking about that. By that logic we should prune all tags that can spoil things.

Also, in the said discussion more generalized tags have been suggested too. I am totally fine with those tags too.Last modified on 2018-09-28 at 19:02
#1452 by warfoki
2018-09-28 at 18:57
If Warfoki want's to revisit it (as he initially commented in it), he is more than welcome.

So basically your stance is "I ain't touchin' this shit!" Yeah... kinda feeling the same. The lines between consensual sex and rape can potentially blurred to a degree even in the real world, in hentai land... oh boy. The subject of the rape in hentai is some so likely to just start being a nympho a minute into the scene that we need Pain Only Rape to filter out the very rare exceptions. And then there are all of the titles tagged with Sexual Slavery (Choukyou Variation). Like at which point corruption / mindbreak sets in enough for the sex acts to become consensual? Can we even talk about consensuality in these cases?

I'll just go and necro that old thread I guess.Last modified on 2018-09-28 at 19:04
#1453 by leery
2018-09-29 at 06:13
1) Stewardess Heroine is wrongly under Hostess Heroine. It currently implies that stewardesses work at a host club.

Also, the blurb in the description is aimed at the mods and doesn't belong there.

2) Hostess Heroine and Host Hero could have less ambiguous naming. 'Host Club Heroine' perhaps.

3) Figure Skater Heroine ought to be under Athlete Heroine I guess.

4) Ex Hero and Boyfriend Hero belong under Heroes [sic] Relation.

5) If the tag merger proposed in t3617.1189 ever happens, Landlady Heroine needs to be included in the mix too. Surprised it took me this long to find the fourth tag.

6) I'm kind of happy about the sister heroines title changes. But why is there a '(s)' at the end of All Heroines are Protagonist's Sister(s)? It could just read 'All Heroines are Protagonist's Sisters' if you ask me.

It'll at least help a little to avoid people tagging imouto games with it, if that's the goal (is it?).

The reason I wanted the oniichan restriction was because it would clarify its use in relation to the other tags (i.e. point users at a more fitting tag); technically I was trying to hijack someone else's tag. Presumably thewayfarer is the originator.

I will not use the tag for oniichan games though -- I prefer to use the most accurate tag I can find.Last modified on 2018-09-29 at 06:23
#1454 by warfoki
2018-09-29 at 11:50
1-4. Done.

5. I'll think about that a bit later, we'll see.

6. Because technically all of the All X Heroines tags can be (and have been) used on games that have one single heroine. Since I was renaming it anyway, might as well reflect on that.

I will not use the tag for oniichan games though -- I prefer to use the most accurate tag I can find.

Please don't sabotage the tags on VNs intentionally. As I pointed it out in t3617.1446 Protagonist's Sister as a Heroine and Heroine Sisters are not mutually exclusive and none of them are more "accurate" than the other. They are tagging different things that can overlap. If they do overlap, use both. If someone wants to search for only one of them, they can just exclude the other in their search.
#1455 by leery
2018-09-29 at 11:56
'tis not sabotage; 'tis just refraining to use a tag.

6) I consider the 'All X heroines' to require more than one heroine *shrug*


EDIT: Right, moderators. Request. If you go about changing the new 'default tag spoiler' setting, please post your changes in this thread.

Us users may have to double-check our tag votes.Last modified on 2018-09-29 at 12:03
#1456 by warfoki
2018-09-29 at 12:01
Knowing that a tag belongs there, taking the time to tag a VN and then intentionally not adding said tag because you don't want it there IS sabotaging the tags on that VN's page. You are making that VN essentially hidden from others who just want a pair of sisters as waifus and don't care about whether they are related or not. You are essentially forcing your opinion on others by intentionally misinterpreting the tag. Please don't do it.

Edit: I got a better idea, let's actually involve the community in deciding sppoilerous tags. I'm gonna make a separate thread for that.Last modified on 2018-09-29 at 12:08
#1457 by bobjr2000
2018-09-29 at 16:15
Out of curiosity is there a tag or trait for heroines that don't have separate routes but have a forced shared one. Example is often can have sisters or twins you can get together but you can't just end up with one of them its always both.
#1458 by warfoki
2018-09-29 at 16:18
No, not that I know of.
#1459 by kominarachromer
2018-09-29 at 23:16
As an addition to my earlier post about Lock-On Technology: Fossette ~Cafe au Le Ciel Bleu~ has a similar feature, but it only works for H-scenes.
#1460 by kud
2018-10-02 at 09:39
Hi everyone I'm new here. I want to say shouldn't there be a VN voice/no voice tag? i think that is pretty standard one as it is unconvenient that i have to search otherwhere whether one VN has voice in it or not
#1461 by kominarachromer
2018-10-02 at 10:42
#1460 Voices are specified by release. To search them, use the release filters.
#1462 by saluki
2018-10-02 at 13:59
May I suggest name change for the romance tags to prevent confusion?

Female Romance -> GxG Romance
Male Romance -> BxB Romance

Girls Love Only -> GxG Romance Only
Male Romance Only -> BxB Romance Only

Lesbian Sex -> GxG Sex
Male on Male Sex -> BxB Sex

Otome Game -> GxB Romance
Bishoujo Game -> BxG Romance (this is a deleted tag, but I think it's better to start using it again)

Having a uniformed naming pattern would make it much easier to use the site, both for the taggers and the searchers. The use of GxG, BxB, GxB, BxG is universal on lemmasoft (biggest EVN creators forum) so it does have legitimacy. Plus the current "female romance" is confusing; anyone I spoke to have thought it's a tag for otome games...
#1463 by beliar
2018-10-02 at 16:55
God damn it! I always forget to make those changes the moment I leave the thread. I'll do it now.

Female Romance > Girl X Girl Romance
Male Romance > Boy X Boy Romance
Girls Love Only > Girl X Girl Romance Only
Male Romance Only > Boy X Boy Romance Only
Lesbian Sex - see absolutely no reason for the change. In fact GxG sex is a much worse substitute
Male on Male Sex - I feel the same as previous
Otome Game - GxB Romance can be an alias, but there is no reason for a change. In fact, Otome is already a genre, while GxB Romance is content of the said genre. The former has a better representation what the game is about than the later.
Bishoujo Game - every romance game that is not otome, is bishoujo by the definition. We don't need a useless tag that would be used on 100000 VNs.

And yes, I know what Lemmasoft tags their games, but many users here have a dim view of OELVNs and don't necessarily subscribe to the same terminology in all cases.
#1464 by minah
2018-10-02 at 17:44
Can I be a bit anal retentive and ask you to change those Xs to lowercase? Or if no one else is bothered by it I guess I can deal.
#1465 by beliar
2018-10-02 at 17:53
Sure. I have no idea why I have used a capital X... -.-'
#1466 by minah
2018-10-02 at 18:02
Thanks.
#1467 by sakurakoi
2018-10-02 at 18:34
Bishoujo Game - every romance game that is not otome, is bishoujo by the definition.
That's not quite right... it also includes any game with beautiful girls as focus so even they are horrible raped, it is a bishoujo game. So times 5 the useless-ity it is~ If anything, Galge would be more appropriate, albeit it is seen as synonym 100% which is silly.

And yes, I know what Lemmasoft tags their games, but many users here have a dim view of OELVNs and don't necessarily subscribe to the same terminology in all cases.
Meanwhile it is the first time I heard of 'em or someone using GxG, BxB, GxB, BxG (where is FxF anyway? Ah, we got it already, right and luckily it is not called queer~), not that it means anything, just something I'd like to note.

Still waiting by the by for whenever, which is never, gay becomes exclusive to males to have something as silly as Male on Male Sex not necessary after neither Bara, BL, Yaoi &c could cover the simple everything of male homosexuality in a single friggin' term. Of course I will still stick to calling it Yaoi and Yuri personally, those who want to differentiate between commercial/professional and doujin/amateur can duck off.
#1468 by beliar
2018-10-02 at 18:50
it is the first time I heard of 'em
Oh, snap, I'm sorry, man! It's heartening to see people from North Korea discovering internet for the first time. :-P

gay becomes exclusive to males
Blame English language, chum. And maybe Canada too.....Last modified on 2018-10-02 at 18:50
#1469 by sakurakoi
2018-10-02 at 19:12
Oh, snap, I'm sorry, man! It's heartening to see people from North Korea discovering internet for the first time. :-P
Did you just assume my gender if not even race?!

Also, I'm fairly sure I am in another "North" but I am to afraid to check outside. WW3 did not start yet, did it?

Blame English language, chum. And maybe Canada too.....
I'll stick to blaming Canada only, they are the most human humans and this I do not mean as compliment. At least Germans also did somehow lack that but they apply it much more rarely to females than before, calling them not "schwul" anymore but "lesbisch", so progressive! Alright, let's just call it "Schwuler Sex" or only "Schwul" instead of Male on Male Sex! Japanese will also love some German Shenanigans even if they can not pronounce it (not that I expect any English speaker to do it well either, I only love to hear them trying, tehe~)
#1470 by lightning-rod
2018-10-02 at 20:23
Yo, Fix (revert) these tags while you're at it.

Cross-dressing Hero > Trap Heroine
Cross-dressing Heroine > Reverse Trap Heroine
Cross-dressing Male Protagonist > Trap Protagonist
Cross-dressing Female Protagonist > Reverse Trap Protagonist
Cross-dressing Male Support Character > Trap Support Character
Cross-dressing Female Support Character > Reverse Trap Support Character
Only Cross-dressing Heros > Only Trap Heroines
Cross-dressing Male on Male > Trap on Male (This one I'd argue that it can be changed to Josou Seme)
#1471 by warfoki
2018-10-02 at 20:46
(This one I'd argue that it can be changed to Josou Seme)

As an alias, sure. You can even add the kanji for it. But if there is a perfectly serviceable term for it in English, then let's stick to that as the main name.
#1472 by saluki
2018-10-03 at 16:45
Lesbian Sex - see absolutely no reason for the change.
Male on Male Sex - I feel the same as previous

It's the matter of uniform, like the other changes. One is "lesbian" while the other "male on male"; the romance tags are "girl x girl" and "boy x boy" while the sex tags are "lesbian" and "male on male" - that's unintuitive and make the life of users much harder. As a person who don't frequent vndb everyday, I still use the search function and help out with tagging stuff when I can, and in my experience it's very discouraging to play guesswork with unintuitive tags and result in people not wanting to contribute...

Otome Game - GxB Romance can be an alias, but there is no reason for a change. In fact, Otome is already a genre, while GxB Romance is content of the said genre. The former has a better representation what the game is about than the later.

The same argument can be said for Yuri and Yaoi though. Yuri and Yaoi are better known names for the genre, but vndb had decided to change to enhance clarity and erase the needless Yaoi/Bara distinction, right? If so then we should do the same for Otome. Especially since there are otome games that have no GxB content (yep, friendship-only and yuri-only otome exist). That's why I don't think the category of otome is necessary, but a Girl x Boy Romance will serve better what most otome fans want to find.

Bishoujo Game - every romance game that is not otome, is bishoujo by the definition. We don't need a useless tag that would be used on 100000 VNs.

Romance includes 4 categories, GxG, BxB, GxB, BxG. Right now it's unwieldy to search for BxG because the users have to filter out the other 3 all the time. I agree that most JVNs are BxG, but it'd still be nice to just have 1 tag to type. Plus seeing how less than half of EVNs are BxG, it's a matter of time before the Romance tag is swarmed with Otome and Yaoi more than I'd like to swim through.

And yes, I know what Lemmasoft tags their games, but many users here have a dim view of OELVNs and don't necessarily subscribe to the same terminology in all cases.

Ah, I only brought up Lemmasoft in case anyone refutes that those are "newly made-up terms." It's not my intention to force vndb to follow that tagging practice, I'm sorry if I came off that way. I personally prefer Yuri/Yaoi, but I agree with the concern over needless distinction between Yaoi/Bara so using unambiguous English tags is the best way to go.Last modified on 2018-10-03 at 16:52
#1473 by kominarachromer
2018-10-03 at 17:17
#1472 Problem is, GxB Romance would also technically include a ton of nukige that happen to have female protagonists, and I doubt that's what most otome readers are really looking for.

Problem is, BxG is just too broad, and not really useful; as you yourself said, you can just filter out the other tags. And the cost of convenience is paid by the people who have to go through around 12.000 VNs to tag them as BxG, which sounds like an utter nightmare.
#1474 by warfoki
2018-10-03 at 17:20
It's the matter of uniform, like the other changes. One is "lesbian" while the other "male on male"; the romance tags are "girl x girl" and "boy x boy" while the sex tags are "lesbian" and "male on male" - that's unintuitive and make the life of users much harder. As a person who don't frequent vndb everyday, I still use the search function and help out with tagging stuff when I can, and in my experience it's very discouraging to play guesswork with unintuitive tags and result in people not wanting to contribute...

You do have a point there, so I added those names as aliases. Now if you search for girl x girl or gxg, lesbian sex will come up.

vndb had decided to change to enhance clarity and erase the needless Yaoi/Bara distinction, right?

We didn't actually. Bara exists and is used about 170 times. Bara Rape got denied, because it being not needed apparently (a decision I'm not so sure of, but I digress), but Bara itself was never deleted. And I disagree with the distinction being useless.

As for the Otome genre, I'm not an expert on it, but it served well. What you are suggesting would basically mandate deleting the current tag. Considering that as far as I can remember you are the first to dislike the system on this and that the tag is used over 2000 times, I really don't think all that would worth the effort and the loss of deleting the tag from 2000 titles for what is an infinitesimal gain at best.

Romance includes 4 categories, GxG, BxB, GxB, BxG. Right now it's unwieldy to search for BxG because the users have to filter out the other 3 all the time. I agree that most JVNs are BxG, but it'd still be nice to just have 1 tag to type. Plus seeing how less than half of EVNs are BxG, it's a matter of time before the Romance tag is swarmed with Otome and Yaoi more than I'd like to swim through.

Generally our policy is not adding tags and traits that are basically the default for VNs. Hence why we don't have "Japanese Heroine", "Vaginal Sex" or "Bishoujo Games". What ends up happening with these tags, is that a LOT of times people will simply forget to apply them, since they are so ubiquitous. Considering that when you search for something, you only see the titles, not the VN pages, you would just get (assuming that every relevant VN would be tagged) ~20 000 titles listed. Which, btw, wouldn't even be true, because there are 50 items on a page and the pages cut off after page 100 everywhere in the database, maxing the possible viewable results at 5 000. As such, you couldn't even list 3/4 of the result, making this tag utterly pointless. Not to mention, by people forgetting to apply it, the search engine might not even show it.Last modified on 2018-10-03 at 17:23
#1475 by kominarachromer
2018-10-03 at 17:24
#1474 Hell, there's quite a few tags that are already ubiquitous enough that people just forget about them entirely. ADV is a good example.

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