|#1426 by warfoki|
2018-09-26 at 13:22
If it's not male crossdressers, and it's not feminine-looking men, then what is it?
Feminine looking men is closer to it, but not quite there. Just because a man look effeminate, he isn't necessarily mistakable for a woman. Nor is he necessarily treated as such. That's the main difference. Traps are treated as women in universe by pretty much everyone. Even when other know they are biologically male, they will still treat them as if they would be female. That's the key here, the context. Effeminate man, Androgynous and crosdressing hero doesn't cover this aspect, which is arguably the most important part of the fetish.
My own experiences don't bear this out. I first encountered the term when I still watched anime regularly, and honestly, that GLAAD article is the only place I've seen it outside of anime-adjacent fandoms (read: English-speaking fans of Japanese media).
Irrelevant, because the overwhelming majority of people are part of the anime community. Visual novels are distinctively Japanese medium and even the one developed in the west mimic all the anime gimmicks and style. If someone can't stand the look / sound of anime, chances are they won't much like visual novels or frequent this site either. While there some exceptions, stuff like Juniper's Knot or The 39 Steps are like one in a thousand. SO if a term is widely accepted and known by the community interested in "anime-culture" and has no easy replacement with equal meaning, then it is perfectly fine for a tag.
No, because there aren't any alternatives to those terms which aren't both incredibly unwieldy and ironically counterintuitive.
Pretty much my exact reasoning for keep the trap tags as is. We could mold them, but at this point they are way too widely used to retroactively change who it is used, the best we can do is change it to fir how people are actually using it.
It's unavoidable, but we can at least TRY to mitigate the problem. If nobody can agree on the definition of the term, then we need to pick a different term.
Problem is that your suggested solution compounds the problem. Yes, it is a clearer definition to be sure, but not for the fetish people are looking for with these tags. And by retroactively changing the tag, all you do is get people confused / irritated when they can't find their fetish that they used to be able to search AND the tag is going to be misapplied retroactively, since some VNs won't fit the new description.
Tell that to the zillions of people who come out of the woodwork saying that trans people aren't and never have been traps whenever someone starts saying that the word "trap" is offensive to trans people.
Bleh, some people are perpetually offended by fucking everything these days, I don't much care. If it makes no difference otherwise, I'm fine with making some minor changes to descriptions to be more... politically correct. That consideration however, goes right out the window the moment it starts to impact the practical usefulness of anything. If someone gets offended by that, well, I don't much care. I have little to no interest in pleasing the extreme, regressive leftist types and I don't see anyone else complaining.
I'm fine with current transgender description, it's simple and functional. You basically said pretty much the same thing, just with more words. I know there's some difference between "formerly male" and not matching gender identities, but honestly, all this tag needs to do is to explain what "transgender" is in the shortest sufficient way for those who have never heard of it. Those who have, won't read the description anyway. Still, I'm not necessarily against the change if others agree with that. But that's another discussion.
Now, I'm not necessarily against trap heroine and crossdressing hero both being a thing in theory, as they, as we have discussed, not quite the same thing, but the issue is, wouldn't people confuse the two with each other all the time? Descriptions are secondary, as the trap heroine tag itself attest to it, very few bother to carefully read descriptions and just put on whatever tags they feel like based on the name alone. The previous compromise there was that aside of the trap protagonist, heroine, etc. we had Cross-dressing to compliment it. I think this is an acceptable compromise, as if you want to know who crossdresses, you can check the character pages to see who has the trait counterpart of the tag. Having both trap and crossdressing character specific tags would lead to a lot of confusion / mistagging I fell. So in practice, it's probably one or the other. The reason for keeping trap tags over the other is because they have been in use for close to a decade and VERY few ever complained. It works, so why fix it? If we would have had the crossdressing tags for 8 years and now someone would want to change them to trap tags, I would be equally against the change. But that is not the situation.
As for where I was when you proposed the change originally: not here. For context: I had been the sole active tagmod since 2013 until last year. I got burned out, got on the site less and less frequently, so the admin ended up having to promote a couple new people last year. They... didn't last long, I assume they got burned out. That's when a new set of tagmods were approved who have been running that part of the site in the last half a year. 7 months ago was the point where they haven't yet been promoted, their predecessors were inactive and I only occasionally came up because of the burnout. So there was pretty much nobody to deal with any tag / trait requests reliably. While that is in no way your fault (in fact, it's mostly mine...), it might give you some context what took so long with this.
|#1427 by sakurakoi|
2018-09-26 at 14:08
Traps are treated as women in universe by pretty much everyone. Even when other know they are biologically male, they will still treat them as if they would be female.I guess we can then only tag very few as traps then because in pretty much any case this is, well, never the case indeed.
The main problem here is that gender roles and gender treatment are ultra arbitrary and vague. How is a man treated, how is a woman? Apart from of course blatantly showing how bigoted many are, it is difficult to draw the line and as much as one would like to have their fetish crystallized with a 100% hit chance, this simply will never be real unless one compromises and uses several tags. Obviously there is also much that can be called androgynous.
Not that the suggested Tomgirl is that good yet (Tsundere my behind, pretty sure Lady Boy is also reserved for something else) but it is getting close (with clothes not being a requirement, for it is also covered by cross dressing).
I am surprised by the by that there is no tag for docile, meek or obedient which should even be different to those which just call 'em kind/gentle or hetare/submissive (the latter is here sexual even). Many traps or rather tomgirls are indeed called so because they are also docile. Both tomboy and tomgirl are the sum of many circumstances and stand opposite to each other.
just put on whatever tags they feel like based on the name alonealso a reason why several tags are better fit so that others can get a clear picture, like the protagonist/hero(ine) is cross-dressing, androgynous and docile instead of just a "trap". Add maybe tomgirl on top of that for girlish hobbies. Expressive (in contrary to stoic) and Emotional (not the same as short-tempered, there is already a trait) could also be quite valid.
In short, even if you think it is too much new but it is not like they can not be used elsewhere, I suggest
-Keep Cross-Dressing Tag
-Refurnish Tomgirl Tag to only entail girlish hobbies
-Maybe even remove trap as alias, it is a shame that many may be mistagged but time will tag 'em right.
|#1428 by warfoki|
2018-09-26 at 14:46
|Yeah, no, we are not adding like half a dozen separate character traits as tags. That's what we have the character database for. Not to mention, while these combined might give out a "trap" tag, how do you know as someone just looking at the VN page, that these tags refer to the same character(s)? In other words, how do you search for traps? And the answer is, you cannot. The closest thing you can do is combine half a dozen tags,in search, to maybe find some of the relevant entries. Considering the people complaining and the immense number of times the tag has been used before the change, there is clearly a need for a better method that that.|
And retroactively changing widely used tags in a way that causes previously correct applications to be mistagged after the change is a hardline no. As long as I have a say in it, we are NOT doing that, period. I'm not willing to make a compromise on that.
|#1429 by pabloc|
2018-09-26 at 15:25
Yeah, I'd suggest tweaking that tag a little as well. I think replacing the old bit about crossdressing with the part about appearance, behavior and gender expression suggested by #1425 would make the description clearer. "Newhalf" is already included in aliases, so mentioning that term in description isn't necessary. And I'd use "biological sex" instead of "formerly male" and such, since it's the most objective and accurate term.
"Game features a biologically male heroine who identifies and acts as a member of the opposite sex. They may have also undergone sex reassignment surgery. The heroine's appearance, behavior, and gender expression are irrelevant to this tag. All that matters is her gender identity.
Please do not confuse this with futanaris. That is a biological issue (having the genitalia of both genders) while this is a psychological one (a person's biological sex conflicts with their psychological gender)."
Maybe we could also remove the futa part? I'm not sure if it's really necessary.
We should definitely replace every instance of "gender assigned at birth" with "biological sex". The former is a far-left newspeak nonsense and should be nuked from the database ASAP. >_>
Now, what should we do with cross-dressing tags? Right now they kinda apply to transgender characters who dress as a gender that's opposite to their biological sex. If those tags are supposed to be used exclusively for characters who ONLY dress as opposite sex, without any gender-identity issues, we should add this to all descriptions:
"Note that such character doesn't actually identify as the opposite sex, only dresses up as such. For characters with gender identity issues, use [insert relevant transgender tag] instead."
I'd say separating transgender characters from simply cross-dressing ones would make sense.
|#1430 by warfoki|
2018-09-26 at 15:40
If those tags are supposed to be used exclusively for characters who ONLY dress as opposite sex, without any gender-identity issues, we should add this to all descriptions:
Yeah, without even reading the description, the problem is already obvious: people don't give a fuck about descriptions. They will just use the tag on any biologically male character in a dress / bikini / etc. Transgender or not.
In fact, as far as I can see on the trait applications, people are only using the trait if the visual novel specifically addresses transsexuality, other than that we have one occasion where a gender change is tagged as well and one occasion where... I don't know what the fuck is this is tagged with transwoman: Fukugou-gata
While on the other hand trap and crossdressing traits are widely used, they combined have been used around 1000 times compared to the two transsexual trait's 16 use in total. It's fairly obvious which one people prefer. The tendency is similar in the tag department as well: Transgender Heroine has 27 uses in comparison to Cross-dressing Hero that has 213 uses.Last modified on 2018-09-26 at 17:40
|#1431 by entra|
2018-09-26 at 17:05
|I have to agree with warfoki; trap really doesn't have a direct equivalent while Girl x Girl Romance is practically identical in meaning and usage to Shoujo Ai. Even if there's no precise definition, people still have a very good idea what it is and helps them find/exclude what they want (and trap is definitely used outside anime/manga communities). If trap is too inclusive, surely it's better to make new, more specific tags? The ExH description is a good start imo.|
|#1432 by pabloc|
2018-09-26 at 17:33
Yeah, you have a point - adding stuff to descriptions won't help. >_< I guess it will be the best to leave cross-dressing tags as is, as simple indication of how characters dress, without any implications about their gender identity. Though I can see a potential issue with post-op transsexual character dressing up as his/her original, biological gender. Is that cross-dressing or not? XD Oh well, we'll deal with that issue if/when it shows up.
And it's good that trans tags/traits are used sparingly. They should be reserved for serious cases of trans characters, not just for every random fetish-fuel trap. Or some generic hentai-horror monster such as Fukugou-gata... that's from a game that might not even qualify as a VN? :P Though I can't say for sure, since I only briefly checked it out and all I can remember is that it was kinda crappy.Last modified on 2018-09-26 at 17:33
|#1433 by kominarachromer|
2018-09-26 at 22:12
|So, I suggested Lock-On Technology and it was denied. Reasonably so, I suppose. I don't think I phrased it too well, and there isn't really a proper term for it, so let me start from the beginning.|
This visual novel allows readers to "lock-on" to another visual novel; generally to combine multiple games in a series to be played from a single location, a la Sonic 3 & Knuckles.
As the rejection message stated, the main use of the tag would indeed be for the Monmusu Quest series. I don't think any of the tag mods would necessarily be aware of this, but Baldr Sky Dive2 “Recordare” also connects to Baldr Sky Dive1 “Lost Memory”, so that's about 4 games right off the bat. That's just the ones I know of, mind, and I suspect there's more titles out there. Besides, there's a ton of technical tags with similar or even more limited usage (Player Voice Interactivity, Racing Game, Clicker Game, Capturable Units, Concentration (Game), Arkanoid Game, Beat 'em Up, Hanafuda, Real Time with Pause, Xonix Game, Free Camera, Head-Only Sprites, Facial Hair Option, Nameable Units, and Non Looping BGM (Arkanoid Game and Xonix Game in particular should really be removed, since they apply to so few games that are all part of the same series)) and I think that Lock-On Technology has more utility than most of them. It's somewhat rare, yes, but it's a case like Gore Filter where I think that it's something important to know regardless, and I suspect that there are more titles with the feature out there that I'm not aware of.
That said, it might still be necessary to tweak the tag name/description, but I really don't have any better ideas. I'm sure that someone could come up with a better title, though.
|#1434 by warfoki|
2018-09-26 at 22:26
|How about Mergeable Releases? Because as far as I can tell, you basically merge the different releases in a series into one coherent game.Last modified on 2018-09-26 at 22:26|
|#1435 by kominarachromer|
2018-09-26 at 22:47
|#1434 That's a better idea than mine, at least.|
|#1436 by lightning-rod|
2018-09-27 at 03:50
|So... what I take from this, is that the tag "Trap Heroine" is being brought back?|
|#1437 by leery|
2018-09-27 at 05:46
|Randomized Events: The problem with this tag, as I pointed out earlier, is that it's the bread and butter of Simulation Game and its children.|
The submitter included Anime Studio Simulator as an example in the description, and I would've thought that the 'Simulator' part of the title would've tipped him off.
I would hope that the description be tightened somewhat, or it'll essentially be a redundant tag. Or at least the relation to SLGs be pointed out.
Oh, and Sexual Content by Location should be moved up in the tag hierarchy by one level, I think.
(Does this mean that I have a different mod I can fight with? Not exclusively with beliar any more? This prospect is making my head spin.)Last modified on 2018-09-27 at 06:01
|#1438 by beliar|
2018-09-27 at 06:00
|We'll tag-team you, man. There is a trait for it. :-D|
|#1439 by leery|
2018-09-27 at 06:01
|Right, Sister Heroines.|
Technically it applies to most games where oniichan gets a lot of sisters (because those sisters tend to be sisters to each other too), but there are better tags for the situation already, aren't there? I'd prefer if the tag wasn't used for those 'oniichan games'. Which is what I mentioned when I floated the idea here. (I didn't propose the tag myself!)
Does anyone have an idea to accomplish that?
|#1440 by kominarachromer|
2018-09-27 at 06:08
|#1439 It would be for the best if there was a “and not sisters of the protagonist” or something at the end there.|
|#1441 by warfoki|
2018-09-27 at 06:18
|Which then would be ignored by all the people not reading the description, and I refuse to name the tag "Sister Heroines (Not the Protagonist's)". Plus the already existing twin sister heroines doesn't have this specification either.|
@1437 - We'll see. This tag dosn't interfere with anything and it can always be deleted if nothing but simulation games end up being tagged with it.
Also, technically I'm the "original" tagmod (well, second, the very first one was Echomateria but he hasn't been active on the discussion boards for years now), I just happened to... disappear for about 1.5 years, sometimes sporadically returning. Constantly arguing about tags and traits kinda burned me out after a while.Last modified on 2018-09-27 at 06:26
|#1442 by kiru|
2018-09-27 at 11:16
|@1433 : There being many pointless tags is not a reason to add more. It's a reason to remove them. I'm thinking for quite a while that VNdb should not bother having tags for things that have nothing to do with VNs. Like do we really need detailed tags about gameplay systems and what kinda rpg the hybrid is? Heck no. You are here to search for a VN. Knowing it's also an rpg, an SLG or an action game helps but that's it.|
But that's the issue. We really need to simply delete tags. A lot. Like A LOT. And someone has to make a list of those and people have to actually decide on that and do it.
|#1443 by leery|
2018-09-28 at 04:47
|1) Just pointing out that All Sister Heroines exists and you *will* get confusion between it and Sister Heroines with those titles.|
Twin Sister Heroines is a red herring; it's a useful (rare enough) tag by itself.
2) Heroines Relation is described as 'heroine's relation to the protagonist' yet it has collected a few tags that are instead about heroines' relation to each other. Heroine's Mother as a Heroine and Sister Heroines ... well, there were two more but now they're tucked beneath Sister Heroines. Ah well, probably of no consequence.
3) Ex Heroine: belongs under Heroines Relation?
4) Heroine's Mother as a Heroine: Add alias 'Mother-daughter heroines'. Unless that implies something I'm not thinking about again. I'm of the opinion that the string 'daughter' should be there at least. 'Mother Heroine with Daughter Heroine'?
5) Whipping: Is it a sexual tag? Pretty sure the tag's primary use will be sexual, but it's not written nor filed as a sexual tag. Strange.
6) Randomized Events: I found it peculiar that Majotori -- a quiz game -- was tagged with it. The random part of that game would presumably be the quiz engine (i.e. selection of questions.) Well, maybe it's more than that *shrug*
7) Real Time with Pause sounds ridiculous. Why not merge it with Real Time Strategy Game? Pausing to give orders is standard fare in RTS, isn't it? Also, the title is misleading.
8) Real Time Strategy Game: Add alias 'Realtime Strategy'Last modified on 2018-09-28 at 04:48
|#1444 by warfoki|
2018-09-28 at 05:10
|1) Hmm... maybe renaming it to Sisters as Heroines? That should be a bit more clear on what the tag actually covers.|
2) Ehh, it's just a meta-tag, no mistagging, so I'm not in a hurry to fix this. I want to clean up tags in general, this is far from being the only weird tag structure.
3) Yeah it, it does. Fixed.
5) I made this tag a couple days ago and I went back and forth between the two categories. Ended up with the current solution. Note that whipping is listed in the "subject of" section among traits, not in the sexual part. The point is that while it is very often used in the context of BDSM, there are stories that feature whipping very much non-sexually, so I figured it would do better under Torture, than under BDSM.
6) *shrug* indeed.
7) It really isn't, I don't know where did you get that, but the point of real time strategies is, well, to be played in real time. Of course you can pause them, but you'll find that the overwhelming majority of RTS games don't actually support handing out command while being paused. So all in all, this is perfectly valid tag, nothing ridiculous here.
8) Done.Last modified on 2018-09-28 at 05:11
|#1445 by dk382|
2018-09-28 at 11:59
|For Sister Heroines, large parts of the community ignoring tag descriptions isn't a good excuse for not adding more clarity to the descriptions, imo. I support at least adding the part about them not being related to the protagonist to the description. "but not sisters to the protagonist" or something. It'll at least help a little to avoid people tagging imouto games with it, if that's the goal (is it?). Because right now, there's nothing in the tag description saying you shouldn't.|
|#1446 by warfoki|
2018-09-28 at 13:01
I support at least adding the part about them not being related to the protagonist to the description.
Why though? I don't see a problem with using the tag on a pair of sisters who are also siblings of the protagonist. A character being a sister of a male protagonist and also having sister, who also happens to be a heroine is perfectly possible, in which case the VN should be tagged with both Sister Heroines and Protagonist's Sister as a Heroine.
Edit: Renamed All Protagonist's Sister Heroines, Sisters as Heroines and Twin Sisters as Heroines to make their names more descriptive and to help avoiding confusion. Admittedly All Protagonist's Sister Heroines is quite a mouthful, but I had no better idea.Last modified on 2018-09-28 at 15:08
|#1447 by namingmegently|
2018-09-28 at 17:03
|All Protagonist's Sister Heroines: What about 'All Heroines are Protagonist's Sister'? One word extra but inserting a verb makes the title a little easier to process. All Brother Heroes could likewise be renamed to 'All Heroes are Protagonist's Brother'.|
Sisters as Heroines: 'Heroine Sisters' seems less likely to confuse 'sister' as being protagonist's sister the way 'Sister Heroines' and 'Sisters as Heroines' kinda do. Maybe it's due to Heroine being singular with Sisters as plural. Also when you give a relation as the first word of a title, you subconsciously fill in the missing possessive before it as 'Your' aka the Prtogonist's since in English sentences when the reader ends up asking who, the answer is the invisible 'you' and we read from left to right, so in the title, the relation to whom should be indicated first. In this case 'sisters' belongs to heroine thus each other, instead of belonging to protagonist. Basically I see it as '(Your) Sister Heroines' and '(Your) Sisters as Heroines' versus 'Heroine Sisters (to each other)'.
Heroes/Heroines have tags that are for male/male and female/female twins, in other words, only same-sex twins? No identical twin tags either?
|#1448 by warfoki|
2018-09-28 at 17:27
|Those namechanges actually make sense, so I implemented them. Not a fan of having a whole sentence as a tag name, but such long phrases really don't work without a verb in English all that well.|
As for the same sex siblings, the problem there is that the tag structure completely separates the male (heroes) and female (heroines) counterparts, so gender-independent character tags were always a bit hard to place. And most visual novels have an intended audience, and based on that have either heroes or heroines in there. Exceptions are quite rare. As for the identical twins, honestly, if anything non-identical twins would make sense. The overwhelming majority (if not all) of stories featuring twins or triplets feature identical twins.
|#1449 by rampaa|
2018-09-28 at 18:19
|If some active mods can revisit this I'd be more than glad.|
|#1450 by beliar|
2018-09-28 at 18:38
|I read through that thread and it's a horse dump on fire. If Warfoki want's to revisit it (as he initially commented in it), he is more than welcome.|
I frankly don't know what to do with it. I have a knee jerk reaction to various "exclusion" tags and I personally see little use in "rape by non-protagonist". In order to use the tag correctly, we would have to first define "rape" in the description, as the mentioned scenario where the protagonist mindbreaks the broad and then shares her with others is quite common. Would that be considered rape or not?
I don't feel smart enough to take into account all the implications approving such a tag would have, though I'm just sure it will be used in a way that will anger a lot of people. Either it will not be spoilered correctly, or it will raise a question if the content in the metaphorical VN is even rape...
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