|#1 by beliar|
2018-04-10 at 19:04
|Recently I have noticed a rather baffling edit by our friendly neighbourhood graphomaniac Sakurakoi c2.19. He changed a character gender from female to male with an explanation that on vndb gender always denotes the physical thing, i.e. the genitals the character has (is he confusing gender with sex?). Now, I don't remember such a rule. Did I skip a discussion regarding that, or did Sakura pull the definition out of his gluteus maximus?|
I admit, that gender can get murky in certain instances, and sometimes people are really bullheaded and idiotic regarding it (just look at the edit wars concerning a certain Danganronpa character), and that was a clear cut case of a spoiler that needed to be hidden. However, if the description of Watarase Jun is correct, the character is pretty clearly a Transwoman. Not only that, but we actually have a separate trait Transgender, and the description of that trait clearly contradicts the definition of 'gender' Sakura applies to the character.
Now, if the said traits are applied (which I think they should be, in this case), doesn't it look simply silly and, dare I say, misleading, if the gender field says 'male', but the trait field lists 'transwoman'? Moreover, other characters in the db, under the Transwoman umbrella are marked as 'female', with the exception of the instances, where the character starts the game as a male.
And my final argument, for the sake of the consistency within the db, the same rule should be applied not only to the characters, but to the staff members as well (yes, there are transgender VN makers currently in the db). If we go by Sakura's definition, it creates some very unfortunate real world implications, because that would mean that, for example, Penelope Sophia Smith would also have to be tagged as male, which would be frankly insulting.
Hence, I think that the gender field should actually list the assumed gender (and it currently does for majority of the characters in this situation within the db), and not sex, like Sakurakoi seems to be lobbying for.
|#2 by wakaranai|
2018-04-10 at 20:04
|i'm with sakurakoi on this one, character gender was always indicative of the biological sex, and it's mentioned in guidelines d12#3. any outliers should be covered by traits. also, i don't find this misleading at all, to the contrary, it describes character perfectly without unnecessary confusion.|
on a somewhat related note, i'd like to point out that gender-related discussions almost never lead to anything productive, and are usually an early indication of a sjw infestation (clearly u142712 is an account registered solely for that particular edit). these tendencies should be cut short immediately before they grow to amounts that threaten community stability.
|#3 by minah|
2018-04-10 at 21:42
|The guidelines say "(Reverse) traps should have their biological gender filled out here" but don't mention trans characters specifically. The line between male crossdresser and transwoman can be fuzzy, but a character self-identifying as female clearly falls on the trans side.|
That said, the guidelines also say to mark futanari (i.e. female-identifying characters with penises) as both male and female, suggesting that the gender marker is more about genitals than gender identification. I've tended to err on the side of marking trans characters in all ages VNs with their identified gender (since their genitals are irrelevant) and marking trans characters who haven't had genital reconstruction surgery and who appear in sex scenes as both. So I would probably mark Watarase Jun as male & female. But I'm not 100% sure that's the best interpretation of the guidelines, so I haven't reversed edits if other users changed them (e.g. Carter).Last modified on 2018-04-10 at 21:45
|#4 by beliar|
2018-04-10 at 21:57
|Erm, Minah, you do know that futanari is not a female-identifying characters with a penis, but a fictional being with both functional male and female genitals (vagina and penis, balls are optional)? Right?|
It's right there in the description. That's why they are marked as 'both'. No matter how you look, no real life human person can be both and should be one or the other...Last modified on 2018-04-10 at 22:00
|#5 by minah|
2018-04-10 at 22:07
|Yeah I know, my point was that if the gender marker was only based on gender identity and not genitals, futanari would just be marked female.|
EDIT: Oh, I think I see what you're saying, that the both genders option is just a special case for something that can't occur in real life but that doesn't mean the male/female gender markers are about genitals in general, as I interpreted.Last modified on 2018-04-10 at 22:19
|#6 by pabloc|
2018-04-10 at 22:22
|This thread should be moved to VNDB discussions at this point, since it's far beyond Happiness.|
Typical traps and reverse traps really don't need any of that useless politically correct bullshit. They are male and female, respectively. Period. The vast majority of them are there just for comedy and/or fetish reasons and stories where they appear don't even touch sexual identity disorders themes.
If a character is >actually< transgender (that is - it's clearly described as such in the VN and the story features gender identity issues, like in Gesshou ~Tsuki no Terasu~ for example) then we could maybe consider marking them as "both", to differentiate between common traps and characters that actually take being trans seriously. Either way, transgender character probably shouldn't be marked as "just male" or "just female", because that's misleading.
Or we can just nuke the concept of "gender" entirely, and mark strictly biological sex. Actually, I think it's a very good idea - other details can be included in tags / traits, and the concept of sex is less susceptible to the insanity of SJWs, who firmly believe there are 378,3 different genders out there.
for the sake of the consistency within the db, the same rule should be applied not only to the characters, but to the staff members as wellWhat the heck are you taking about? As I mentioned above, traps usually have absolutely nothing to do with gender identity disorders, and mixing fiction with reality is a pretty damn unhealthy idea in general. >_>
|#7 by sakurakoi|
2018-04-10 at 22:22
|Just let me note a few more things quickly, for wakaranai already provides sufficient proof:|
the character is pretty clearly a Transwoman1: the character is actually transgender, the description says nothing about the biological sex being changed i.e no sex reassignment surgery or magic, the traits also suggest the she is still biologically male. Otherwise it would not be men with men sex anyway.
2: The character gender should actually be changed to character sex to be consistent with the description and what is actually more useful to know, namely what is down below. By default and many traits do not note whether they had e.g anal sex in a female, male or whatever body.
3: Staff can actually remain with their preferred gender and let it be named gender. There is no need to make it consistent... you really only want to be consistent on the weirdest of places, no? (Eh.. I am not in the mood to make any jabs or note any of yours, I'm sleepy)
4: Whatever way one transitions or instantly changes to because of magic (one has to though): The standard is to have separate instances for each sex, like the guidelines indeed say. If it is too much of a bother for whatever reasons (some just change for a little extra scenario) it is still both, in the works the character/instance is featured in, the character has reproductive organs of both sexes (though alternatively, not at the same time like Takatsuki Takehara).
5: In short, I also assume that gender was just chosen carelessly when the db was made, without considering that both terms are applied differently. In terms of chromosomes or society. I blame no one for that.
I've tended to err on the side of marking trans characters in all ages VNs with their identified gender (since their genitals are irrelevant)6: Actually not true, they sure are concerned about using facilities designated to each sex especially when they had no surgery, the title can still be "all-ages" and often are.
7: Incidentally I am Non-Binary, not that anybody cares thou', including myself. I am glad to be born in a civilized country with civilized parents (noteworthy in today's day and age: they are still both together) which just want me to be a responsible human being/don't become a criminal, just be healthy&happy. Not pulling yer leg by the by but I'd find it funny to say "Don't assume my gender! I never stated it!" (or did I? I am fairly sure that I deliberately never do state my sex online, for moments like this~)
Erm, Minah, you do know that futanari is not a female-identifying characters with a penis, but a fictional being with both functional male and female genitals (vagina and penis, balls are optional)? Right?XXY: I would not really call them fictional being when this happened: link
Let's just say futanari are a specific kind of intersex, the description for Hermaphrodite also reads that Futanari is more specific (but more often encountered)
|#8 by beliar|
2018-04-10 at 22:29
|@Minah: Point. However, considering futanari are fictional, we have much more leeway regarding their traits, than with actual humans. |
In this particular situation I see a dichotomy betwixt the 'gender' marker and the proper traits that should be assigned to this character.
If the character description is correct (and for now I assume it is), traits 'transwoman' and 'transgender' should be added to the character. At the same time, 'homosexual' tag should be removed, because a transwoman who is interested in males is not gay, she is straight. This creates an interesting situation, where a character marked as 'male' is not credited with 'homosexual' tag, despite showing interest in another male character. The solutions as I see are: a) assign incorrect traits ('homosexual'), in order to bring the character in line with the gender marker, or b) correct the 'gender' marker to actually refer to psychological gender, thus bringing it in line with the traits.
The second solution seems better to me personally.
Or maybe Yorhel should just rename 'gender' marker to 'sex'. That would actually remove a lot of confusion. In that case traits would serve to provide the real useful info, while those who really care about it will get to know what really dangles below. Tip: it's a Khanjali. ;-)Last modified on 2018-04-10 at 22:36
|#9 by rampaa|
2018-04-10 at 22:37
|I think the gender field should indicate biological sex (as indicated by d12#3.) And I do disagree on it being misleading.|
As for staff members' genders, I simply don't care what their gender is or what kind of real world implications it would have if we were to reflect their biological gender there.Last modified on 2018-04-10 at 22:38
|#10 by yorhel|
2018-04-11 at 04:41
|I'm pleasantly surprised about the civility in this thread so far.|
Anyway, I do believe that the gender field was indeed intended to refer to their biological gender. I'll rename the field to 'sex' later to avoid confusion.
|#11 by cnkx|
2018-04-11 at 05:33
|There will be civility if these topics aren't brought up in a SJW cuck manner and are actually brought up in a serious way, latter being what OP did.|
It's easier to get shit done when one is not overly offended and defensive about everything. If OP had instead started this thread under a different light, like throwing insults and calling everyone transphobic and talking about how their special snowflake self is hurt, I guarantee this thread would be a shitfest by now.
|#12 by minah|
2018-04-11 at 07:17
|Funny how the only person throwing insults around is someone whining about how SJWs are the awful uncivil ones... yawn.|
|#13 by cnkx|
2018-04-11 at 12:09
|nobody said theyre uncivil; in fact that award goes to the anti-sjws who are just as bad for different reasons, however if you're actually implying that there's absolutely no problem with them and what I said isnt true, thats certainly laughable. Or maybe seeing as you think there are insults being thrown, you're the sensitive type I was talking about? I fail to see the point you were making. regardless, I wont discuss this any further before this thread ironically becomes a shitfest. Laters|
|#14 by sakurakoi|
2018-04-11 at 13:27
Anyway, I do believe that the gender field was indeed intended to refer to their biological gender.Well, if you do not even remember, when you were the one who most likely wrote it, then I'd suppose that indeed no real thought was put into it, especially since the differentiation of gender and sex is rather new (sure, it was advocated when feminism actually had a point but I'd say it took until 2010 at least to reach the broad public... or might still have not, I can not look into people's heads).
After all, you still wrote biological gender, not biological sex, so you ain't into the differentiation between both terms because whatever gender expectations and whatever gender identity ideas, are nothing you care about. Now to be frank, not caring about that is actually best, if everyone would think like that, not that narrow-minded, there would be no need to separate those terms.
In my language, German, there is not even a synonym for gender/sex still, both are translated into "Geschlecht", even though we do have gendered substantives (they have got a "Genus", that originally Latin word is applied here only in terms of grammar, not humans and norms).
If OP had instead started this thread under a different light, like throwing insultsI am fairly certain though that "friendly neighbourhood graphomaniac" can be taken quite as an insult or offense, whether it is meant sarcastically or not but one thing the internet should have taught its long-time denizens is how to brush such "microaggressions" off (like #11, which sure is still not "awful uncivil")... instead for taking them too seriously for it is just silly to make such the main point of a post and worse: Unnecessary and detrimental if there is at least a point left to discuss seriously.
luckily already a proper consensus has actually been reached and all we can do now is wait for the fix that should avoid any confusion. Now I also hope that beliar understood the difference between transgender and transsexual (being a simple before and after surgery/magic) and welp, that proper futanari exist (though are much more rare than presented in fiction).
by the by, to last but not least answer the last concern: Before transitioning, a transwoman (i.e a transgender woman) is homosexual if she prefers males and her sex should be marked as male, after she (as transsexual woman) is heterosexual and should be marked as female (if sufficient enough, which "just" means the shape of primary and secondary sexual organs is either, not both). Compatibility between the bodies matter indeed, not just the psychological. A both (instance) is noteworthy when it play a role in the story, which means that the transitioning was not instant.
|#15 by cnkx|
2018-04-11 at 13:40
|@14 Exactly, that "insult" was so little that I didn't even notice it, and you did the same as well - that's why I didn't even mention it. I totally agree with the whole consensus of not taking shit said on the internet too seriously, that's why I was surprised at @12 for apparently taking what I said as an insult?|
Honestly what I said is nothing more than the mere truth, SJW's REALLY do make a big deal out of everything in the most immature ways possible, but the way I see it OP didn't do that.
I called them cucks? snow flakes? overly defensive? the horror, such insults. As if those weren't true for the most part.
|#16 by rampaa|
2018-04-11 at 14:11
|I want to point out something related. |
@beliar seems to favor displaying the wrong gender over leaving it blank if the said info is a (major) spoiler. Which, admittedly, makes a lot of sense. But it contradicts with the current guideline, which clearly says:
If the real gender is a spoiler, which is sometimes the case with traps, leave this field at "Unknown".
So should this also be changed?
|#17 by cnkx|
2018-04-11 at 14:19
|having no gender is immediately a spoiler in itself tbh, you would get suspicious of it and know that the character's gender may become a story point. |
Leaving the gender unassigned in a specific danganronpa character would definitely be a spoiler, so I think assigning the wrong gender makes more sense too personally.
|#18 by entra|
2018-04-11 at 16:32
At the same time, 'homosexual' tag should be removed, because a transwoman who is interested in males is not gay, she is straight.I find this an interesting point. Speaking from ignorance, I would very much consider them gay. I'd define gay as liking the same biological sex, regardless of their identified gender(s). Am I out of step with the average person here?
Renaming it to sex is a good move. Going by genitals is both clear, straightforward (at least compared to anything else!) and what most people are going to expect.
When a character's real sex is ambiguous and an obvious plot point, I don't see leaving it as unassigned as a spoiler. If it's just "surprise, they were actually not what you thought all game!", then sure, leave it as the wrong sex.
Edit: Staff gender doesn't really matter and has high drama potential, I vote for "whatever the person they says they are" as the way to goLast modified on 2018-04-11 at 16:37
|#19 by sakurakoi|
2018-04-11 at 18:04
|Please just keep in mind that false information should be used as sparingly as possible in a db. Always weight those who could be deceived®retful against those which would be spoiled. Needless to say, those who wasted money and time have much more weight than those who for some reason would see the work as so spoiled that they just could not have enough enjoyment.|
A simple example is buying a work as heterosexual male because of a cute heroine and then... she is actually a he and actually has a penis. It does not matter if that is a major drama point that he deceived you out of fear and you have to deal with it on the spot (and goddess be damned if some fool writes some lengthy monologue on how one has to love him still). Funnily enough it is not like there is much to write home about, either one does not care or the romantic relationship and story is over. Luckily few to neigh developers are mad enough to make and even sell such stories/fap-material, without disclosing the sex anyway, but I may be mistaken and just missed that trash/scam.
In Danganronpa it is indeed acceptable because, if I am not mistaken, they are likely no love interest to pursue in a dedicated route or at least not sexually involved (since the works do not sell on sex for there is simply neigh). Both
I'd define gay as liking the same biological sex, regardless of their identified gender(s). Am I out of step with the average person here?homosexual is quite easily broken up into homo (same) and sexual (or just sex) i.e the current sex matters, whether it now was original or not and if the sex is the same, that's gay, lesbian or homosexual then. There should be no other definition
|#20 by lunaterra|
2018-04-12 at 00:32
Anyway, I do believe that the gender field was indeed intended to refer to their biological gender. I'll rename the field to 'sex' later to avoid confusion.
Could you please reconsider this? Just because it was what you intended when you wrote that rule doesn't mean that it's necessarily the best idea.
It leaves a pretty huge loophole regarding characters in all-ages VNs and characters in eroge who don't have sex scenes. If we never see someone without their clothes on, can we really know what they have under them? We can assume, sure, but you know what they say about people who assume. ;) But that's a LOT of characters who, logically, would need to have their "sex" changed to "unknown or n/a". I don't want that, you don't want that, nobody wants that.
It's like if there was a rule that says that hair color traits can only be applied based on a character's natural hair color. Unless there's some sort of confirmation in the VN, that's a lot of characters who suddenly wouldn't have hair colors, because otherwise how can we TRULY know what a character's natural hair color is?
There's nothing wrong with keeping the "gender" label and having it refer to the character's self-identified gender. That would reflect how gender actually works (this APA article is very informative). If someone is REALLY that bothered by the idea of a character having genitals they didn't expect, that's what traits are for.
XXY: I would not really call them fictional being when this happened: link
Ah, yes, that's the type of quality journalism I'd expect from an outlet with this disclaimer at the bottom of every article:
World News Daily Report assumes all responsibility for the satirical nature of its articles and for the fictional nature of their content. All characters appearing in the articles in this website – even those based on real people – are entirely fictional and any resemblance between them and any person, living, dead or undead, is purely a miracle.
I find this an interesting point. Speaking from ignorance, I would very much consider them gay. I'd define gay as liking the same biological sex, regardless of their identified gender(s). Am I out of step with the average person here?
I can't speak for the "average person", but the person you were quoting is correct: sexual orientation is defined based on gender identity, not biological sex. (Defining it based on sex, beyond contradicting the experiences of many people including myself, usually doesn't take into account the existence of intersex people.) A trans woman (designed male at birth) who only likes men is straight; a trans woman who only likes women is lesbian; a trans man (designated female at birth) who only likes men is gay; a trans man who only likes women is straight. Likewise, if a straight, non-trans man starts dating a trans woman (which DOES happen IRL, same with any other combination of genders/orientations), he's not suddenly bi.
The article I linked above (from the American Psychological Association) is a good introduction to transgender issues. It touches on the relationship between gender identity and sexual orientation, too.
|#21 by encrypted12345|
2018-04-12 at 03:26
|Reminder that the same APA still technically classifies transgenderism (or more technically gender disphoria) as a mental disorder. They seem kind of split on the issue.|
The average layman will generally base sexual orientation on sex rather than gender (hence sexual orientation). I don't see anything wrong with using that as the basis for the wiki definition. The reason why "traps are gay" is a meme is because most people would consider a man gay for dating even a convincing transwoman and are unlikely to be convinced otherwise. You could also argue that sexual orientation naturally has to do with physical rather than mental traits anyways.Last modified on 2018-04-12 at 03:27
|#22 by kominarachromer|
2018-04-12 at 04:12
|#21 Gender dysphoria is a mental disorder. The fact that it isn't indicative of insanity and isn't particularly damaging on its own is a different matter entirely. It's less of a split on the issue and more a failure on your part to understand their position.|
|#23 by yorhel|
2018-04-12 at 04:32
It leaves a pretty huge loophole regarding characters in all-ages VNs and characters in eroge who don't have sex scenes. If we never see someone without their clothes on, can we really know what they have under them?I'm not really concerned about this, Someone's self-identified (uh, author-identified in this case?) gender is a safe fallback in almost all of the cases where a character's sex can't be confirmed. Only when the story is ambiguous about it would we have an issue, and I see no problem leaving those as "unknown". Regardless of whether we choose 'sex' or 'gender', there will be cases where the story just doesn't give us enough information to determine either.
|#24 by sakurakoi|
2018-04-12 at 06:05
Reminder that the same APA still technically classifies transgenderism (or more technically gender disphoria) as a mental disorder. They seem kind of split on the issue.While I won't argue whether it is a mental illness (caused by societies forcing norms one can not or want not conform to), it is anyway common for everyone even within such circles to disagree and make their own definitions up and one should be easily find someone as "source" to agree with you or "prove" your point/bias, heck...
I sure did a mistake there, I did not expect that to be a Poe, it was sure not obvious by the article alone and one would not expect anyone to lie about that. Luckily it was just on a side note anyway while at least being able to do either (impregnate or be impregnated) is not unheard of for intersex humans but most likely they do not have a deep crevice and standard (if not even huge) log, plus chest.
One can still wonder if chimeras, which are not just fiction but are proven to happen naturally even for humans, can have both characteristic fully functional. The offspring would be not selfcest but incest by the by. (On a sad note, knowing that you absorbed your twin, who never was, sure is depressing, whether you consider the relationship twins can have to be the most wonderful&sacred or not)
You could also argue that sexual orientation naturally has to do with physical rather than mental traits anyways.Welp, that should go without saying, one could not see the other any more than as best friend if their physique, namely primary and secondary sexual organs, does not match one's preference. That's how it is and how it should stay.
and yes, characters should have their sex indeed noted, not gender for the very same reason:
It leaves a pretty huge loophole regarding characters in all-ages VNs and characters in eroge who don't have sex scenes [state their gender]. If we never see someone without their clothes on, can we really know what they have under them [same applies to gender]? We can assume, sure, but you know what they say about people who assume. ;)also, dat infamous wink, between my mistake and that, if a mistake would invalidate everything one has written (very common method on the internet, to even go so far and invalidate a person entirely is not rare) then it'd be the wink that'd be an instant out. The meme is even and properly called "Did you just assume my gender?" and not "Did you just assume my sex?"~Last modified on 2018-04-12 at 06:06
|#25 by pendelhaven|
2018-04-12 at 08:04
|so what's the gender of a feminine presenting transgendered gay?|
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